The Dark Lord debating against Explorerdude.  The Dark Lord for false, Explorerdude for true.

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Let me begin by asking a question.  You believe that once you've accepted God into your life as your Lord and Savior, that you will always stay saved, no matter what?  Even if you outright reject God later in your life?

The real question is: did you really accept Him in the first place? Jesus claims in dozens of verses that many will say that they believe him, but they fade very quickly away when the going gets tough. In so many cases, you didn't even have it to begin with, so how can you lose it? In Mattew 7:21 it says “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." people think it sounds all well and good, but they were never truely a Christian, and God will reject them on Judgement Day saying, "I never knew you"

There's people like that in every aspect of this world.  There's the kids that pick up the guitar and become amazing at it, and then there's the ones that pick it up and put it back down a couple weeks later.  I'm not talking about those people, because, as you said, they aren't even saved.  Not really.  I'm talking about a person who is firmly convicted in God. 

Take me, for instances.  I believe that were the Rapture to happen right now, I would be taken.  I am firmly convinced in my belief in God.  But, if I go out and, for whatever reason, kill someone and don't repentant of this act and ask God for forgiveness, am I still going to be taken in the event of the Rapture?

God would be deeply greived by your wrongdoings, but yes, you would be taken to heaven. Ephesians 4:30 says; And do not greive the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.  Doesn't mean that you won't be swept up with other believers, it means-- basically-- don't sin. It makes God sad. He still loves you to the day you die. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Romans 8:38-39 says;  For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,  nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That's cool. Waaay cool. Because, if we could be cut off from the pack by some unrighteous act of ungodliness, then that would be blastphemous. Follow me. Ephesians 2:8-9; For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast. We do not get into heaven by our actions, correct? (If the answer is on the contrary, please disregard the rest of this post) It says in Isaiah 64:6 All our righteousnesses are like filthy rags. Wow. That's harsh. All our best works to get into Glory are like dirty cloth to God? That's a bit tough. If we could get into heaven by something of our doing (save exepting God's perfect gift) that would mean that Jesus' dying on the cross wasn't enough. Who in their right mind would die that painful of death for nuthin'? Nobody. Because it was enough. So, now that we established that, on to the good stuff. I am saved. I know that I am saved. Always and forever. If I did as you said-- murder someone-- and that heinous movement set me apart from the LORD, that would be the same logic as earning my salvation: Not of works, lest anyone should boast. Just like in Ephesians 2:9. Not. Of. Works. It just doesn't fly with God. You can check this just like you can check multiplication with division and division with multiplication. Act of righteousness: fithy rags. Filthy rags: acts of righteousness. Or more relavent to this discussion, Acts of sin: Love and forgiveness from God (That is, God is still grieved by wrongsdoings) Love and forgiveness:  Acts of sin. Am I making myself clear? God hates sin, but loves the sinner.

I quote"if you love me you will obey my commands"so what it's saying is that if you do not obey me you do not love me. if you don't make an effort to obey God you will stand before him on judgement day and he will say"i never knew you"and you will go down into the depths of sheol.yes God loves the sinner but even Satan used to know and love God but he changed his perspective but God still loves is a choice, you can love God or hate him. do you want to be saved? The choice is yours.

Yeah, that sounds great and all, but note that in the verse from Romans it doesn't mention sin as something that isn't able to keep us from God. 

I mean, this sounds wonderful and all, and I would like to believe, but I can't.  God loves us all, yes, but we have to accept Him, and then honor that.  As I said before, I am certain of my future as of now.  But I'm going to throw out a hypothetical situation here, in which I get seriously messed up.  Doing drugs, cussing every other word, having sex with whoever wherever, rape, murder, the whole shibang.  If I did all that in later years, after having been firmly convicted as I am now, I cannot believe that I would die, still living that dark life (probably through overdose or murdered), and be allowed into Heaven. 

Because if you look at the places in the Bible where the end is concerned, you'll find bits telling of how God will judge the people.  I can't give specific verse, but basically God looks at His big book that has my whole life detailed in it and He's going to judge me out of that.  Now I agree that deeds will never get you into Heaven.  Saving that old lady's life from the vicious chainsaw killer is not going to help your cause at all if you haven't accepted Jesus.  But God doesn't look at our deeds alone.  He examines our hearts, the way we do what we do, and the reasons behind it.  If we do a good deed, but for selfish reasons, all well and good, but God ain't gonna be impressed.  But if we do a good deed and the only benefit we get is knowing that what we did brought a smile to God's face, that's what brings joy to Him.  That's what's called storing treasures up in Heaven. 
So God's looking at everything I've done my entire life, and at my heart as I did it.  He sees this part of my life, the good part, and it's great, because I'm living to try to please him.  But then there's the second part of me life, in which I am doing absolutely nothing to please him.  Everything I'm doing is the exact opposite of what he commanded I do.  And in my heart is, basically, "Screw God, I'm just gonna live how I wanna".  There is no way that the years before, in which I followed God, can in anyway cancel out the fact that I died living the way the Devil wanted me to, instead of God's way. 

Yeah, I totally believe that our God is great and incredibly forgiving.  I believe that he can and will forgive any sin (except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit).  But the thing about forgiveness is that there first must be repentance.  Without repentance, there will be no forgiveness from God.  My pastor actually just preached on this last Sunday.  I don't remember any of the verses he gave (because, uh, I don't listen all that closely...) but the gist of it was that God is ready and willing to forgive us.  All we have to do is repent and ask.  But if there is no repentance in your heart, there is no forgiveness from God.  Because if God forgave us of our sins and we didn't have to be repentant, there would be no point at all of God laying down the law, because if that was the case we could run around sinning all we want.  I'd be running around, doing drugs, have sex outside of marriage, cussing out little old ladies, lying, stealing, or what have you, but after each sin I'd just be like "Sorry God.  Please forgive me.  Won't happen again" and move on, not changing at all.  

Being repentant is being willing, determined even, to change.  It's the part of you that decides to fix things.  That's what needs to be in my heart for God to forgive me.  If He sees that I'm just asking forgiveness so that I don't go to Hell, it's not happening.  Our God's grace knows no bounds, but we have to want Him to extend that grace to us before He will. 

Remember, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23.  "Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
    nor his ear too dull to hear.
But your iniquities have separated
    you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
    so that he will not hear."  Isaiah 59:1-2

Sin does separate us from God.  It is the one thing capable of doing that.  So if I die leading a sin filled life, having loved God previously in my life is not going to save me. 

Forgive me for my tardiness and untimely fashion in replying.


I'll adress these in the order they were given.


Yeah, it actually does say that sin can't keep you apart from God. First, it says death. Death is arguably the same thing as sin. Even if you don't agree, it mentions principality, which is simply a subordinate place ruled by a prince. Ephesians 2:2 says "In which you once walked, according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, {who is} the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." Principality in that context would mean hell, and Satan is the father of lies, so yeah, it would make sence that a principality could mean sin. Powers? Yeah, sin is a very powerful lure to lead us (Christians) away from Christ. Things present and things to come. That's a big one. Maybe you're saying "I've done something really bad in the past, and it doesn't mention things past" Let me get something straight here. This was written 2,000 years ago. Any thing that you have done is in 'things to come' in that verse. Even if if you don't concour, it also says any other created thing. That includes yourself. So anything that you could do could never part you from your bond with Christ.


That is a very good argument that has tripped many a person up. I've asked my own mother that same question several years ago, and she didn't have an answer for me. here is mine: It sounds like a legitament predicament that someone could find themselves in, but it's-- in reality-- a paradox that could never happen. Let me explain. Seeing as you used yourself before for this example, I'll use you again. You believe that you would go to heaven if the rapture happened. A true Christian you call yourself. And I have no doubts that I would see you in glory. But, you said "What if I turned away from my faith?" if you are a true, sincere Christian, then you would never dream of turning away from God. You wouldn't go on a sinning frenzy (for lack of a better term) if you truely, truely believed in Jesus. If you did, then you never loved Him that much at all. A fairweather friend as some might say. You didn't loose it-- you never had it. It sounded all well and good before it got hard. I've gone through both. I've gone through super tough times in my younger years and basically didn't care much about God. But I have thusforth renewed (not that I lost it, so don't think that's what I'm saying. I don't think I was a true Christian then)  my faith, and have become a true follower of Him the last few years. I have had a better relationship with Him then I've ever had before. Trials test us. They weed out the thick from the thin. It's not people loosing their salvation, it's sorting the disiples from the counterfiets. 2/3 of America claims their faith as Christianity. Most of those people are going to people like Rob Bell who are saying "God loves everybody too much to let them go to hell. In the end, everybody is going to go to heaven." He does love everybody, but he is also a just God that cannot let sin go unpunished. So He sent His son to die for us to be the sacrifice for us, so that we wouldn't have to. Because of that, NOTHING can separate us from God. John 10:28-29; And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. And no one is able to snatch them out of my fathers' hand. No one. No one at all. Nothing.


Yes, He will judge people. Not on overall actions, but wether or not they were a follower of Him. A TRUE follower. If you go to a judge in court, for murder (or something that merits much punishment), the judge will probably give you a life sentence. If you say, "but judge, I've been a good person most of my life! I gave to the poor all the time, I helped out at the food bank, and never told lies! It's just been the past couple years that were really hard, and I got in to drugs, and then it led to this" the judge is still going to give you a life sentence. James 2:10 says, For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.You may have done a bunch of good things in your life, but just like it says in Romans 3:23, For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Hebrews 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. God loves you, but He is a just God that cannot let sin go unpunished. Doesn't matter if you are Bill Gates and give a trillion dollars a year to homeless people (although I do believe Bill Gates is a Christian), if you have not been an apostle of Jesus Christ, you are not going to heaven.


What is this about blastpheming the Holy Spirit? I would like some references (if you don't know them off the top of your head, look them up, please) and more information about what you believe on that matter. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1 John 4:10

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent His son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Nothing on our part (other that exepting God's gift), just like the verse says. It's all God.



I think we're arguing the point with a misunderstanding here.  The misunderstanding being in the word "saved".  The way I'm looking at the word "saved" (in the context of Once saved always saved) is a person who accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and turns his life around appropriately.  Obviously not the people who say "I'm saved!" and then do nothing different, but not necessarily the people who will remain steadfast Christians the rest of their lives.  I know a gentleman who grew up in a Christian home and was a Christian himself for his whole life, and now, at around age 50, has converted to atheism.   And I fully believe that along his path, probably more in the early years, he was saved. 

I don't take "saved" to encompass a person's whole life.  We're talking about a person in this moment.  Right now, I am saved.  When people ask, I will tell them that yes, I am saved.  I'm not gonna tell them "sorry, you gotta wait till I die to know whether I lived my whole life saved and can thus say I was".  Things happen.  People change.  Crap happens.  And today there is no guarantee that the people who are saved are going to stick by God no matter what.  That is no longer a common way of thinking about it.  There are the people who accept God, then walk away a few months later because they got fed up.  Then there are people who love God and stay for years through some low times, until something completely rocks their world, maybe the death of a family member, a divorce, who knows.  Does that mean that for those years where they loved God they didn't really love him?  When someone plays the guitar for a few years and gets good, but then drops it for whatever reason, at that point we don't call him a guitarist anymore.  But he did used to be one.  He was called a guitarist and he was good at it.  He might hate the guitar now for some reason, say something really bad happened because of it or with it, but when he was rocking it, he loved it. 

My point being that saying something like "A TRULY saved person would never part from God" defeats all purpose of debate.  That goes for anything.  I mean, it's like saying "A person with ANY brains would be able to see what I'm saying", except not.  A TRULY saved person as you are describing is what we all hope and strive to be.  But honestly, can any of us say for certain?  We can say "I will never leave God", but nothing is certain in this life (in us).  Yeah, I like to say that nothing could make me turn from God, but I will never know that for certain until I hit the point where my faith is tested.  And it doesn't have to be anything huge.  I don't have to lose the person I love and thus hate God.  Yeah, sometimes it can be dramatic like that, but more like as not, it is subtle temptation that will bring people low.  There are plenty of people out there who firmly believe in God, and that they are doing His will, when in reality they're breaking twenty odd rules. They truly believe that they are in sync with God and will be with him for eternity.  Usually because of twisted doctrine that they've been taught.  But they live and die that life, always believing.

So saying "No one that is TRULY saved would ever leave God" is an argument that defeats the point of argument.  Because I don't disagree with that point.  If someone is saved, and loves God for the rest of his life and lives that way, yeah he's not gonna have a problem.  But we're not talking about the people who become saved and love God for the rest of their lives.  We're talking about the people who stray from God after they've been saved.  Something that is entirely possible and happens all too often. 

There is nothing in the Bible about "once saved always saved".  Once you've been saved, you have to live by the rules God has set down, because if you don't, you're toast.  Being "saved" is not a process.  The word "saved" does not encompass my life.  It encompasses the moment when I decided to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior and live accordingly.  Everything after that is my walk with Christ. 

Yeah, that's what I thought too, but just read Matthew 12:32-33.  Jesus speaking here.  "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Pretty black and white there. 

First off, I'd like to clear something up here. 'Blastpheming the Holy Spirit' is described as simply rejecting the Gospel. Saying, "I think all that God stuff is lame" and living out the rest of your life as so, THAT is blastpheming the Holy Spirit. Even though you shouldn't do it anyway, saying "the Holy Spirit is lame" is NOT what they are reffering to. So, me and you are physically incapable of commiting that sin. Just thought I should say that if you didn't already know. If you did, good for you.


And about the truely saved thing-- saying "If you were truely saved you would never turn away from God" IS a perfectly legitiment statement. You might have been a 'true' Christian more or less, rejected God, and not be a Christian. If you didn't value God enough, and you gave up Him that easily (Yes, I did just say the word easily) you don't deserve Him (Matthew 7:23a And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me). Nobody deserves Him. It's by grace. It's all by grace. It's kind of like debating wether or not gravity is real. I say "Of course it's real" and you say "No it's not". If you jump out a window, you will hit the ground. Not to be a cop out, but I'm not gonna butter it up and say it's something that it's not. Bottom line is, sin cannot separate you from God. Choosing outright to reject Him is a different story.


And as far as those verses go in the last post you did, you took them out of context. If you go to the end of the chapter you will see that Isaiah ain't saying that sin that people commit can keep us from God, he's saying that when Adam and Eve sinned, they messed it up for everybody and now we are all separated from God (then). It then says how God plans to save everybody by dying for us. Get the picture?


Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him
That there was no justice.

16 He saw that there was no man,
And wondered that there was no intercessor;
Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him;
And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.
17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
And was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.
19 So shall they fear
The name of the Lord from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;
When the enemy comes in like a flood,
The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
Says the Lord.


And for future reference, I would like some verses to back up your points. Otherwise, I could say, "God says that bacon brought Jesus back from the dead". It doesn't mean it's true just because I said it. I gotta proove that He said that (Not that He did).


I am trying to speak the truth in love here. It may come across as blunt, and I'm trying to be nice, but I'm just not gonna sugar coat it for you.


Ephesians 4:17, Speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-- Christ

You just made my argument for me, using the verse that backs it up. 

I am not saying and have never said that sinning will completely separate us from God. I am not saying that if I sin now, it will throw me from God's presence. 

What I am saying is that if you sin, and you do not repent of that sin, you are in serious danger.  I'm not gonna say it sends you to hell, because only God can know that.  Whether you're "truly" saved or not, you're gonna be in trouble.    You absolutely have to repent.  This is not something that can be skipped, or passed over, or forgotten.  It is key.  If you repent, honestly changing your ways, then you're still spiffin.  And that is God's grace.  God's grace is not saying "Oh, you're saved, you love me, awesome, it's all good". 

Jeremiah 31:18-20

Matthew 4:17

Mark 1:4

Luke 17:3 (this one should be taken into account along with this one, Matthew 6:15)

Acts 3:19

Acts 17:30-31

Romans 2:5-8

2 Corinthians 7:9-10

Revelations 2:5

Those are all verse emphasizing the need for repentance. 

You cannot say that we are physically incapable of committing any sin.  Right now, at this very second, I could walk away from God.  I could.  But you know what keeps me?  The fear of hell, the promise of heaven, and my belief in God's all mighty power.  But should those somehow be lost, I would walk away.  I would be perfectly capable of doing so.  Because of God's gift to us.  Freewill.  He gave us the choice.  Gives it to us every day.  There is no concrete path set out for each and every one of us.  Rather, I prefer to think of it as something more like a labyrinth.  There are endless possibilities in this life for us.  Every choice we make takes us in a new direction.  Without God we would be hopelessly lost, doomed to wander aimlessly until death.  But He gave us something of a cheat code.  The Bible.  It guides us along the way, and when we make the wrong turn, helps us find our way back. 

In this life, nothing is ever impossible.  That's the way God let us have it.  And the temptation is always there to draw us the wrong way.  So if we continually follow God, fine and dandy.  But there is ALWAYS the possibility of falling away.  You cannot tell me, for a fact, that this is not possible.  I would have to see a verse in the Bible saying, specifically, that it is impossible to fall away from God.  No inference, no implication, just God's word saying that once we've accepted him "truly", we are incapable of falling away.

Because it's called "following God" for a reason.  It's not "chained to God", it's not "superglued to God", it's not "forever together with God".  We are following.  It is a process.  One we engage in every day.  And in following, there is always the chance of straying away.  There are always things on the side of the road to attract.  Every time we sin, we fall away.  Every time we repent and ask for forgiveness, we get back on track.  But if we fall away, and don't get back on track, doesn't matter what happened before, we're screwed.

I'm not saying that if we sin, we're out. I'm saying that if we sin so much it doesn't even bother us anymore, or if we simply put God out, we're done. David was a man after God's own heart, but he sinned time and again. It grieved himself when he sinned. I'm talking about being past feeling from sin. Eph. 4:19 Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Now does that clear things up?


And for those verses, the Jeremiah 31:18-20 is talking about somebody who sinned, and is feeling remorse. He's not separated, just distrought. Most of the other ones are talking about being a new Christian, not re-saving yourself. The Romans one is talking about how certain Christians will get different rewards in heaven. A man who was a believer and sat around and went to church, and came home is going to get different rewards than say, Martin Luther. Eph. 6:8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.

No, not really.  So I'll state it as a question.  Do you think that if a person sins and does not repent of that sin, with full knowledge that repentance is required, that he/she will still go to heaven? 


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